For our 250th episode we got one of our all-time favourite guests, Dane Davis, to come back on Tonebenders. He is going to be receiving the Lifetime Achievement Award at the MPSE Golden Reels this year, so we took the opportunity to have him walk us through his storied career. In this episode, part one, Dane talks mostly about his long collaboration with The Wachowskis. Starting with the indie hit film Bound, through 4 Matrix films, multiple other films and series like Sense8. He shares how he built the relationship with the directors and what it took to keep it strong. Look for Part 2 next week when Dane will talk about his work on other projects, including the excellent new Prime series Expats.
LINKS:
Get Tickets to The MPSE Golden Reels Gala
Info about The LA Tonebenders Sound Design Meet-Up
Dane’s excellent previous appearance on Tonebenders for Matrix Resurrections
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The Following is a lightly edited and repaired, A.I. generated transcript of Tonebenders episode 250 – Dane Davis Part 1. Please excuse any typos or translation mistakes made by the algorithm .
Tim Muirhead/Host
Dane Davis / Co-Supervising Sound Editor
Tim Muirhead: Hey everybody, this is Tim.
Welcome to the 250th episode of Tonebenders.
That is really an insane number.
I never dreamed this podcast would be able to get to 250 episodes.
I’m really excited that we were able to get one of my all time favorite guests to come on for episode 250, Dane Davis.
Dane is getting the Lifetime Achievement award at the MPSE Golden Reels coming up on March 3rd.
I’m looking forward to meeting him in person that night as I will be there to cheer him on.
If anyone listening will be in the LA area and wants to come out to an amazing night to celebrate the past year of sound design, you can get tickets at mpse.org.
This will be my second Golden Reels. I had an absolute blast the first time.
I’m also going to throw out a reminder that a couple of days ahead of the Golden Reels on February 29th will be our second Los Angeles Tonebenders sound design meet up.
Last year was an absolute blast. So many people came out that it was a night I will always remember. If you were there last year, please come out again. It would be great to see you. And if you missed it, make sure you rectify that mistake and come out to the Thirsty Merchant in Studio City for 7:00 PM and hang out on the covered patio to share some stories and laughs with old friends and new from the LA Sound community.
Full details can be found at tonebenderspodcast.com OK, let’s kick off our 250th episode.
It’s still weird to say that we’re going to be talking with Dane Davis. This is part one of this amazing talk. Make sure you tune back in next week to hear Part 2. Here we go.
1:54
Tim:
Hello and welcome to Tonebenders where we talk with the sonic artists behind our favorite films, games and series.
My name is Tim Muirhead and I will be your host today as we talk with an all-time great from the sound community, Dane Davis.
Dane’s previous appearance on Tone Benders is one of my all time favourites.
If you have not heard it, please do yourself a favour and search out Episode 188.
Dane is being honoured with the Motion Picture Sound Editors Lifetime Achievement Award at this year’s Golden Reel ceremony.
It’s going to be a great night, so if you’re in the Los Angeles area on March 3rd, make an effort to come out and be part of the celebration with Dane.
2:30
Tickets can be found at mpse.org
So without further ado, let’s get Dane Davis on and talk to him about what led to this amazing honor. Welcome to Tonebenders Dane, it’s great to have you back.
Dane: Thank you. Thank you, Tim. It’s it’s great to be back.
Tim: Last time you were on, we spoke a lot about the Matrix quadrilogy, I guess you would call it, now since since we did that a lot then, I don’t want to dwell on it too much today, but I kind of wanted to ask you one broad question about the Matrix project to get us started.
Obviously the Matrix was not your first project. You you’ve been on the rodeo for a long time, had a very successful career by that point. But when you were cutting it, did you have an inkling of the kind of impact it was going to have?
3:10 Dane: Wow. Well, certainly had an inkling, you know, an intuitive feeling that this was really special.
But you never know.
I have had that feeling prior to that. And in a certain sense, no one really knows, you know?
And it was my 64th movie as a supervising sound editor.
So I’ve been doing a lot of stuff on, you know, mostly movies that People have never heard of.
It’s like one of my colleagues at the Oscar Bake Off at, you know, at the Academy that we used to do. He sort of came up to me and he said, you know, a lot of people here are going to see you as an, you know, overnight sensation. But anybody that’s been following me for the 20 years prior to that, I’d I’d done a hell of a lot of shows.
3:54
You know it was a special project and and I have talked about it and of course I can talk forever about the Matrix projects. But you know, it was a script that was never going to get made. And and when virtually all of us, the Wachowskis and Zach Stanberg and and Bill Pope, the DP and the whole gang, we had done bound together. And there was a script called the Matrix that couldn’t possibly be made. And and no one could make it for the money that anyone would put up for such an intellectually challenging piece of, you know, high highbrow cinema.
When it happened all of a sudden. It was an amazing feeling ’cause I remember when we’re mixing Bound, we’d read the script and we’re all talking about what if this movie actually got made, what what would we we do, you know. But when it was happening, you know, we all seemed very kind of blessed. Kind of like aliens had brought us to Earth to do this kind of film from the beginning.
It it it was whatever, you know, I’m, I’m at a loss of adjectives, but you know, magical special, none of those words work.
But I do remember a moment when we’re about halfway done and I was thinking, wow.
5:07
Even though I’ve done a a whole lot of movies prior this story, telling the story really requires and challenges my strengths and isn’t daunting in view of any of my, you know, perceived weaknesses or things I didn’t know enough about. It’s like kind of everything was in that movie that I’ve been thinking about for really my whole life, but certainly 20 years working professionally.
So, then it happened.
The show got a lot of attention and people connected to it and loved it in a way that I don’t think anyone really predicted, You know, that it was a risky movie to make. So aesthetically it was risky on a lot of levels as well for us to figure out, you know, how to make this work.
And because it’s kind of an homage, you know, especially to Ghost in the Shell, but also to Neuromancer and and all the Hong Kong martial arts movies.
6:05
So there was a lot of things to consider as they were shooting it and doing the visual effects and as I was trying to cook up the way things would sound to be kind of referential but to take everything as far as I as I thought was possible.
And and of course it went on and on.
6:22
You know, I took a lot of, I spent a lot of years of my life in the, you know, blue pill, red pill combo that we all lived in at that time.
Tim: Well, not only the movies, which then 20 years later had a fourth one, but you, you worked on a lot of the gaming side of it as well, right?
Dane: 6:37
Yeah. Definitely Enter the Matrix. That was really fun. I mean, I think we were doing that essentially simultaneously with with Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions and with the 10 Animatrix anime shorts.
I think they were all kind of in house at the same time, if you could imagine. And just doing those two movies back-to-back was innovating and and you know, inspiring but absolutely exhausting so many ways.
And I think I had nine days off between when we finished Reloaded and then we had to really start full blast on Revolutions, which we’ve been building, I’ve been doing preliminary designs for, but we had to get reloaded and finished. So I had nine days and I basically went to Death Valley and just sat in silence and then drove back and got into Revolution.
And otherwise I just couldn’t have done it And then doing the game on top of it because, you know, and I had a great team that were, you know, more game experts involved with all that, especially Brian Watkins. It’s always an interesting challenge to kind of butt off certain lines of sound development, right.
Because, you know, a game is a, it’s a very different medium, you know, creating asset lists. And because the game’s essentially, you know, the re-recording mixer is is a machine, you know, to a great extent.
8:01
And there’s a there’s a lot that can be done in implementation. You’re kind of pre setting stuff up. But in a way the creators including, you know, the film makers, the Wachowskis, everybody else, we’re not there when when the ultimate audience is experiencing our work, we’re just not there. They’re in there, you know, bedrooms and living rooms playing the game and it you have to think differently about it. But of course we all wanted it to sound completely unified, you know, as if it’s obviously the same universes of the characters that they live in the the two, you know, distinct universes.
But yeah, that was was a kick. It came out great. People still talk about it. I’m very glad that all worked out.
And I mean for Matrix Resurrections, there was a a game to kind of test the new Unreal Engine.
And that was fun to kind of also figure out how to make that enough like the movie world from 25 years earlier when the technology is now approached a point, it’s certainly cinematic in terms of resolution and you know a lot of that it it is, it’s probably beyond cinematic in in certain ways.
9:13
So that was cool as well.
Tim: So something that I want to talk to you about is the idea of a long term creative relationship with certainly the Wachowskis. You’ve been working with them, as we mentioned, they did the Matrix, but they also did Bound before that. Was Bound your first project with them?
Dane: Yes, it was. Yeah. And that’s a great movie.
Tim: If we have some younger listeners that weren’t around when it came out, make sure you search that one out Bound. Jennifer Tilly is the star, right?
Dane: Yeah, and Gina Gershon and Joey Pentagliano.
9:46
Tim: Yeah, it’s a great film.
Dane: It’s a masterpiece.
Tim: I’m just wondering if maybe you can talk about how you nurtured that relationship so that it can continue on.
Dane: Yeah, well, I’m very lucky to have that relationship. You know, I was approached by Zach Stainberg, the editor of Bound and all the Matrix movies. But I was super busy at the time. I mean, any rational person would said “no, I’m really sorry.”
I’d love to, you know, help you guys out. I’m too busy. I mean, I was supervising a western called Gunfighters Moon. I was doing sound on that and I was scoring another feature, an independent feature film. I was writing all the music and playing all the parts myself. So I was already booked solid. You know, I was a film composer from like 11:00 PM to 4:00 AM and then at 7 AM, I was back to being a supervising sound editor on on Gunfighters. It was totally crazy.
But then Zach brought me to a screening of Bound. Of course I fell in love with with them, the Wachowskis, and then the movie, the storytelling approach that they had.
So I was in. I had to find a way to do it. And fortunately I did.
And I think for younger people, and I’m going to touch on this topic a bit for the MPSE Career Achievement Award, because a lot of career achievement is that exact question that you just asked me.
11:14
You know, how do you build those relationships?
How do you identify where they should be?
How do you build them and how do you keep them?
And every indication said Bound stay away because it was way under budgeted, like 80% of the great projects I’ve worked on, but my emotions, my creative soul said “hell yes”.
So you know I I said “yes” and we jumped on it and we just had an absolute blast making the movie. It is such an incredible movie. In fact I was just contacted a couple of days ago about Criterion Collection is doing Criterion of Bound right.
11:58
And I think I worked on it in 94 and five. I think it was finished at 96. That’s quite a long time ago, but it’s great that it’s going to be celebrated in that way.
You you have to connect with people. I’ve certainly had meetings with directors and you know, it was just clear we’re on different planes. You know that the universes and the multiverse that we inhabit are like 4 or or five universes away. I just don’t connect with some people. And and I can feel that and sometimes I say, well, I’ll figure it out, we’ll do the movie anyway. But most of the time I don’t end up working with those people.
12:34
But the Wachowskis we all just resonated. Certainly right off the top in that screening, and you learn to read the film makers because especially, well, any filmmaker, you just develop a certainly a shorthand, but you develop a kind of nomenclatures, maybe a better word. And it’s not always verbal.
Directors generally have very little time to talk with the sound post people, certainly in The Matrix I can tell you some stories about how incredibly difficult it was to have any time. So by the time you start on a really big project you have to already have those communication channels all honed out.
13:15
And I remember on Bound we already had this non verbal thing. I could just see from their faces we would do something and they would turn around and look at me and then this, the look on their face said we’re totally on the right track. “Oh my God, this is great”. Or “sorry, good try”. How else can we approach this thing?
You have to get it because on a mix stage, You got to keep moving. Whether it’s a huge movie or a tiny movie, there’s not a lot of time to, you know, hem and haw and throw out alternatives with directors in general. And I’m sure your audience is very familiar with this. Film makers don’t really think in terms of sound most of the time. If they think they do, they probably do not.
Same with screenwriters. I mean, I’ve gotten some really great jobs because I’d meet with the director and I would point to passages of the script that I’d say that won’t work. Let’s cut that out of the script right now. You know, because screenwriters, they don’t sit in the chair that we all sit in, right?
For uou, the audience, it’s a nonverbal experience. There’s no oceans of adverbs and adjectives to help the audience experience what the characters are experiencing. You have none of that.
The thing either goes wrong, wrong, wrong, or you know that’s what the audience is going to get. You know what I mean?
I’m sure everybody out there knows what I mean.
But like Wachowskis, they always understood that.It’s like I’m, I’m there to do it and they make sounds with their mouths. You could hear it in the dailies sometimes of certain things.
And that’s just intuitively coming out but it was always kind of I was there to not just interpret but to materialize the aural sensory equipment that the characters were carrying around and ultimately the audience through those characters.
15:09
So and that’s the fun part certainly of doing what I do and it was always it was always clear with them. So making Bound was a what do they call it? It was like a retreat, right. Like corporate retreats where the execs all go and hang out on an island and dance, you know to get to know each other. But you know, making a small movie is it’s it’s very much like that you’re all kind of isolated together and you have to do this thing. And Bound was a great experience in a lot of ways.
They they weren’t expected to bring it in on budget, were on time and we all did. And so they got to retain their director’s cut, which is kind of an essential part of their process. They pretty much always had director’s cuts since then.
15:55
But you to get there requires everybody to be pretty disciplined in certain ways. But we all kind of earned it on Bound and then the entire team, I think only the production designer changed with the other movies because they’re shot in Australia. We brought in Owen Patterson as production designer. Did most of the rest of the movies, but it was the same composer and editor and you know, and once once we did the Matrix, it was generally the same re-recording mixers.
Let’s see. I’m trying to answer your question specifically. I mean basically, you know the the challenge is don’t don’t drop the ball. There are times I’ve told the story before but there was something in Bound. Well, 2 two things that I should mention.
You know there was there was one moment that I could see from their faces as we wrapped up that day in the very end of the final mix. The expression that later on they would use a lot is is CBB, you know “could be better” that’s like a visual effects business term, but that hadn’t popped out of them yet. But I could see at the end of the day it was kind of like “yeah, OK that that scene’s working.” I just knew it was NOT working. I was working all night long and it was crazy. Luckily I had Todd Toon was there as an effects editor and he worked for me, now, you know, a very successful supervising sound editor.
17:21
And Todd’s an amazing guy and he rose to the occasion and we we kind of figured out, you know, I had a tiny team. I couldn’t afford any more than that. But I knew from the way we wrapped that night that the expression on their face had to be a different expression.
It had to be that “fuck yeah” look and and I was not seeing it. So I literally just worked all night long trying a whole bunch of of other things and this was super early in the in the digital audio. So things were not as logistically automatic or smooth or efficient in any way, in those days, and we mixed it on mag. But so I I did it and I was even more exhausted and showed up at the stage and we hung this thing before they got there, whatever the the new thing was and we did it and then I got that expression. I got that smile.
So it’s all about you work for that smile like, Oh my God, you know the movie is a movie now and you have to identify those challenges, those moments, you know.
18:31
And on the other end of the spectrum, there was a moment that was a a little tricky where, the the two women, Viola and Corky, played by Jennifer Tilly and and Gina Gershon, they’ve just met. And and Jennifer Tilly asks Gina, who’s like the fix it person in this apartment building, the handy woman, I guess. She asks her to rescue a ring from the drain of the sink. You could tell from the writing and the script and from the way it’s cut. It had to be, it couldn’t just be a foley moment there. The whole relationship was hinging on the sensuality of that moment and I had fun with that and I had I should get to this in a minute.
19:14
But, you know, my whole background on it has been experimental films. So I I’d love to get back to that and and how I draw from the that kind of creative process. But in this case it’s like, OK, she’s unscrewing a piece of drain pipe from a sink. So how do you make that the sexiest moment you’ve ever evoked in a movie? And, you know, and I’m tuned. I mean, I have kind of an academic thing about the way we evolved to emotionally encode waveforms in a particular way, and that’s another giant topic. But you know, for reasons and I knew that a lot of times with metal and with wood and and other inanimate materials, you could get them to be very expressive.
You know, not because the wood or the piece of drain pipe really feels that way, but because in our evolutionary past we interpret that particular shape of sound as meaning something to us, you know, in a sort of evolutionary biology way. And I love that.
And I’ve read a million books and talked, you know, it’s just something I’ve always studied because I’m fascinated. And that’s what music is all about, right? Music is just about that. And sound design is to a great extent as well.
So it had to, like all sound design, It had to work on a sort of literal level.
20:42
But that’s only the very, very surface. And directors, they don’t hire you for that stuff, right? All of us are competent at doing the surface stuff. It’s like “duh see a dog, hear a dog.”
You know, I, I I’ve no interest in in in any of that. I mean I’m good at it and I have people that are really good at but it’s all about subtext when you write a script, right. When you read a script you’re reading for the subtext you’re reading for what’s really going on there between the characters. And in this case it’s not about a drain pipe it’s a seduction. I listened to all the metal squeaks and I went in the the little studio we had there and tried all kinds of things.
21:20
We took pliers and twisted things off and and I found a couple of sounds that did really evoke this kind of sensuous, passionate animal appeal. You know, it’s not a response exactly. It’s it’s an appeal.
Years and years later during the Twilight Breaking Dawn movie, I spent a lot of time with wolves and I had to learn wolves and I recorded some amazing things with these wolves.
And because that’s what they’re doing, right? They they are communicating with these howls. And I can talk for five hours just about the wolf sessions and you know, but it’s the same thing.
I had to get the metal of this pipe as she’s unloosening it to howl like a wolf. It’s a mating call. Anyway, I put some stuff together and we went on to this stage, you know, in West LA where I was in residence for a long time. And we played it for them and it is one of the most gratifying moments ever. Because they got that, I got it, and B, they were getting it. They were getting beyond the wildest dreams. They didn’t know if it was even really possible. All they knew is that it had to work. It had to work the way they shot it. And it’s a little bit of a slow-mo and it’s a little kind of, you know, rack focus-y and you know some of the tools, the visual tools for storytelling in there. But it’s not really over the top or maybe it is, you know, but it had, but the sound is what had to make it work.
And I just realized when I was doing my research for this, for this speech, for this award, is that the reason that I was the sound designer on The Matrix is because of that moment as Corky is unscrewing the drain pipe and removing an earring from the drain for the character Violet. That’s why I don’t want to overstate it, but the feeling was that I had the soul, you know, and I had the creative depth to do something like that.
And that’s the same thing you do the Matrix, It’s the same kind of moments, right? You can’t just make code. It can’t just be the sounds of bits. It’s not about the bits, right?
And bullet time isn’t. It’s really not about, you know, aerodynamics.It is right on the surface. But so anyway, as I was going through Bound looking for clips for this thing, it just registered. That’s it. That’s why they fought so hard to to get me on to the Matrix and they fought to get all their key people onto that movie, which is the you know, the Matrix was a low budget movie, but it was just a massive ambition and we did it so and then from then on you just build on that relationship, right. And sometimes it means the initial opportunity to say yes instead of the logical answer of no. I’ll do this.
You know, you get down to things like we did all the Matrix movies and and Speed Racer together and we were up at Skywalker finishing Jupiter Ascending. I guess I could tell the story. They had been hinting that they wanted to do a series for Netflix. I hadn’t done television since I was a transfer guy in the mid 80s.
A transfer person transfers from a sound effects library on the mag film, which then goes to the editors to edit it on their movie.
24:41
For those youngsters, for everybody under the age of 90, you know, may or may not be familiar with, but that, you know, that’s that’s how a lot of us started out. The transfer person was the opening. If you were technically adept enough and reliable, that was an opportunity to get into sound editorial for a lot of people I know, but I hadn’t done and I didn’t like it.
25:03
I had television and I, you know, I’d worked on Moonlighting, which is a great show, and TJ Hooker and you know, the kind of deadlines, I said no, thank you.
I could just see that creativity is the first casualty of that kind of, you know, expedience. So I I didn’t want to touch it. So here they were. They’re going to do like a 12 episode show from Netflix. I think at that point talked to Ren Kyle, who was the sound designer, he does all of David Fincher’s movies and Fincher had the same idea. He phoned in the middle of the night and said I’m going to do House of Cards and I think Ren had confirmed to me all of my worst nightmares right, that you’re doing a 12 hour feature film that a bunch of people are going to think is a TV show.
25:48
Tim: So is this Sense8 that we’re talking about?
Dane: Yes, it’s Sense8.
Yeah. Yes, I heard about it and I was just like and they weren’t pressuring me in any way. And where we everybody out there has been through this and we’ll go through this. It’s like how much is this relationship, this collaborative relationship worth? Because I don’t want to do television, have nothing against it. And you know, after Sopranos and Mad Men, I mean, television was starting to get really, really good, Better than most movies. It wasn’t an artistic thing. It was just the resources available, right?
26:22
And and the clash between the money people and the creative people, I could just see that was going to be even worse than in the movies.
So Lana Wachowski had a birthday party at at this restaurant French Laundry that was up in Napa and she invited me and so I drove down there from Skywalker and it was a big table like 16 people and it was an amazing dinner like a six hour, 15 course dinner not counting 20 courses of, you know, alcoholic things.
26:55
It was a great crew. But I realized looking around, all of their key creative people were sitting at that table. I looked around and I realized halfway to dinner that that entire table had said yes, except me. So you get to those moments, right?
27:12
And it’s not really coercion, but it’s kind of this is an incredible creative team, you know, in the in the following few days, I I went up to them and I said, “yeah, OK, I get it. I’m in. I’m in”.
But that was a big leap because it was very scary to me. And it was Sense8. And it’s a beautiful show. it’s an amazing psychological, sci-fi piece. And it’s not, it’s very under-appreciated. And it was a complete….. the exact kind of nightmare that I expected because people thought it was a TV show. I mean, everybody involved with the resources, you know, TV show, OK, you’re going to have the luxurious mixed schedule of 3, 1/2 days per, hour long episode and you’re this I had, I just kept saying no, not going to do it, no, not going to do it. And then finally submitted a budget that was still impossible. And I said “OK, we’ll do this”.
But of course, it’s just like a a feature film, you you’re not allowed to make compromises, right Artistically to The Wachowskis, they’re not interested in that discussion.That topic is not on the syllabus, period, you know, even though of course as directors they’re making compromises constantly on the set, right.
But in fact that’s I think one of them at some point, when we’re doing Revolutions, said that’s what directing is. It’s accepting compromises at a certain point. I know I’m contradicting myself but you know, you all know what I mean.
Yeah it’s in the sound post. It’s really about maintaining a storytelling an aural storytelling standard that you’ve set up with whether it’s big movies or a little movie.
28:59
So it was, it was unbelievably difficult because we’re on the stage of course, you know the episodes took 10, 9, 10, 12 days because we would re-work moments, are constantly rewriting the music and and everything that wasn’t full on 100% feature standard, was not acceptable. It was CBB and so it was one of those career thresholds.
It’s not really A twist in the road. It’s just you’re going through a swamp instead of, you know, arid desert in terms of the logistics. But you have to think, can I emerge alive from the swamp? And I kind of didn’t then. And my whole team, Steph Flack and I and everybody, we said never again, never ever, ever.
We’re not going to ever, ever do streaming or anything ever, ever, ever know we’re going to die.
29:51
But then, you know, then the show was kind of a hit and they come back and they say, OK, we’re going to do another season. But then you know, they send you some scripts and but we had to deal with it basically. The budget had to be way bigger and it was still a nightmare. And there were certain key people involved that we just said sorry, but we just, we can’t get it. We can’t work on this if those people are going to be in the way. And it all got worked out and I’m glad we did it. It was very fun.
I got to spend a couple more winters in Chicago, which was always a kind of a blast for Southern California kid like like me.
30:30
I’m still trying to answer your question.
I guess I’ve kind of, you know, you just can’t let them down.
You can’t. And I mean, the weird thing is, you know, on Matrix Resurrections, I was the only person left from their original crew.
Tim: Really.
Dane: Yeah, I was the OG as as Lana would say.
30:47
Tim: OK, we’re going to break up this talk here.
Part one, as you just heard, was mostly about Dane’s work with the Wachowskis.
Next week, in Part 2, Dane will talk about his work on other projects, including the excellent new Prime series, Expats.
As a reminder, Dane is getting the Lifetime Achievement Award at this year’s MPSE Golden Reel Awards on March 3rd in Los Angeles. You can purchase tickets to come out to the gala at mpse.org. It’s going to be a really fun night, so come on out and be a part of it.
On behalf of Dane Davis, my name is Tim Muirhead.
Thanks for telling your friends and colleagues in the sound community all about Tonebenders.
31:26
Narrator: Tonebendors is produced by Timothy Muirhead, Rene Coronado and Teresa Morrow.
Theme music is by Mark Straight.
Send your emails to info at tonebenderspodcast dot com.
Follow us on Twitter via @thetonebenders and Join Tonebenders Podcast on Facebook.
31:43
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